Not The Sealed Portion – Christopher Nemelka

Welcome to the SEALED-NOT or “It is not the Sealed Portion” web site. Here you will find information pertaining to the veracity of the so-called “Sealed Portion” of the Book of Mormon.

“Nemelka is the anti-Christ of the LDS Church.”

“Why would you have one book to get it started (Book of Mormon), then one book to tear it down (Sealed Portion)?” (Chris Hansen)


“It was like peeling back the layers of an onion in order to get to the core of rationality. There was no rationality to be had.” (Raniere)


“The Sealed Portion is to counter the Book of Mormon.” -Christopher Nemelka

In a word, the Book of Mormon is clear regarding the order in which other writings will come forth. Unfortunately, the Sealed Portion is not high on the list – Strike One.

Mormon lore, legend and fantasy is embedded throughout the “Sealed Portion” proving it a modern fraud – Strike Two.

Sneaky, unlawful, suspicious acts led to the so-called “divine” appearances and writing of the “Sealed Portion.” – Strike Three.

The United States of America has fulfilled the prophesied “Work of the Father” that the author has dared to call the “Seat of the Beast” and has identified with the mark “666” – Strike Four.

That the readers may know to what lengths the adversary will go, we must shine the light on the machinations involved.

57 Responses to “Not The Sealed Portion – Christopher Nemelka”

  1. How do you accept Smith’s similar claims made under an equally erroneous position but not this man. They have both clearly done the same thing.

    • Though there are many similarly distasteful doctrines by both of them, two wrongs don’t make it right. If you like the idea of reincarnation, by all means, join him.

      • Sally Mustang Says:

        But yet getting to the third level of the temple to live in the presence of god is the only way to live with god? Or how about this if you are married and sealed with your wife and she dies and you re-marry and over and over and have widowed when that person dies all the women sealed to him are still his wives Correct? And what about the children from each marrige also sealed so is it possible to live out the eternal marrige with 4 wives and several kids? Would that not make you an eternal Polygamist? Not funny just Mormon.

      • The imposter Christopher did not write or translate the sealed portion. I believe it was first published in the 1970s possible earlier. I have been unable to find any information regarding these books as I have only recently learned that Christopher had made claims of translating or writing the sealed portion. I know for a fact the sealed portion was available atleast 40 years ago possible longer. My grandmother had two blue books both labeled sealed portion (vol 1-vol-2) in gold writing similar to the navy blue book of Mormon in appearance. I specifically remember those copies had been published or produced in the 1978 because that is the year I was born. Being a curious child, always wanting to learn new things, I would read the books in secret because my grandmother was not Mormon and forbid me from even touching them, however any chance that I had I succeeded in reading the majority of both of them. I remember around 30 years ago and those old copies where very close If not exactly matches to the replicas that the impostor Christopher claims to have translated. My grandmother had acquired these books from her sister who was a devoted Mormon after she passed away. My grandmother is no longer here and I dont know what happened to the books, however I do know that they exist and must have other copies out there. This leads me to my first question, why the big cover up ? Why act as if this Christopher character is the enemy of the church? Surely every Elder in this religion should be aware or have knowledge of these earlier writings, but yet I cannot find one bit of information concerning them on the internet, although I will continue searching until I do . To me this is evidence of a cover up , so I ask the question why ? How is it a individual that does not belong to any religious organizations is aware of these books yet absolutely know one in the church of Mormon later day saints mentions it but you can find countless articles about this Marcus character. It seems to me the leaders of this organization does not want this information getting out, perhaps because the book condemns their practices and reveals their priest crafts ,secret works and combinations, but it also says they can repent turn from their wickedness and still hold high standings in the community, if not they will be utterly destroyed . The Mormon religious leaders do not follow the scriptures as the catholic church do not follow theirs. The only preach for material gain and the glory of men. All those who doubt the authenticity of these writings or the power of the creator to bring about such works will see the words of the book coming to pass whether they choose to believe or not . If anyone one has any information concerning the original sealed portion please comment below it will be greatly appreciated, thanks .

      • Ms Lyndsey Wood Says:

        Please explain why the sealed portion is distasteful? The organised church religions do not love Thy neighbor and the rich keep the poor in bondage. I think the sealed portion is describing the world events which we are now witnessing unfold. Has the Third Testament been revealed yet?

    • I think this is the most amazing book I have ever read. Why would it tear down the Mormon church? Maybe because of the reason the book said!.

  2. people believe what they want to believe, if it’s real or not it doesn’t matter. What matters is what’s real and the only thing that’s real is compassion.

  3. Arguing that Nemelka’s book isn’t true while the Book of Mormon is is like Arguing that The Hobbit isn’t true while the Lord of the Rings is.

    • Absolutely! Why does anyone expect to believe the Lord would use a 15 year old boy to bring to awareness something as different as the Book of Mormon was in that day and not a grown man to continue that work?

    • Exactly:) please read my post . Do you have any information concerning the original sealed portion. The one Christopher translate is almost exact copy of original. Any information will help. Thank you very much , peace and blessings:)

  4. Call in Sundays to talk live to Christopher 2PM

  5. Joseph Stone Says:

    Is Nemelka a fraud? Hell yes, and if you would use that same standard of evidence, so is “Old Peep Stone Joe” The BOM is a fraud. A reworked version of Solomon Spauldings “Manuscript Found” thanks to Sydney Rigdon. But, this is America and your free to be as stupid a shill as you want to be.

    • Manuscript Found is a weak excuse for the Book of Mormon. It’s about foreigners (Romans) that land on the American continent, yes. But the similarities stop there. Please pick a better explanation for the phenomenon of this long-form religious text; you’re making us look bad.

    • *You’re

  6. I enjoy his show and all that he does whether fact or fiction!!! If you believe Joseph, there’s no reason to not believe Christopher!!! He gives his books away for free!!!

  7. I could never believe in someone who quotes the Bible and Book Of Mormon and affiliated scriptures who promotes it and desecrates it simultaneously, providing utter confusion to the weak in faith, and lacks obviously true spiritual values.

    Promoting World Peace, fixing the problems of the world is not a way of proving oneself as someone worth listening to (Even the so-called Illuminati organizations of the world promote the same thing through it’s governments they manipulate (we know the truth behind all that))unless there is a balance of harmonious Love in the Soul to first Love God, Family (because that is first how we are programmed to pay it forward), and then to others. —–>Which is the way to help the world become better, m not saying it will become better ultimately before Jesus Christ comes back, we know the ruler of this world from a secular point of view, is Satan and/or Lucifer. The True Savior and Ruler of this World is Jesus Christ.

  8. Lol! The gift that keeps on giving.

  9. God will never send a man to undo what another man has done in his name. God does not change his words. He does not send one man to undo another and destroy what he has already set in motion. To do so, then Moses would never have quoted other prophets, or Noah, or even Jesus at his coming. New prophets are sent to back the previous ones and bring men to God not drive them from him. If a man so chooses to set conflict among men, then he must be of the devil and not of God. For God would never contradict himself.

  10. Nancy Buma Says:

    What a fraud. I hear he talks to the Angel Moroni daily by cell phone. He has duped some poor older woman out of moey and her grave site to sponser his develish beliefs. He also would rather goes to prison than support his five children from a previous marriage. He has been married 5 times and has nine children and is currently living in his previous father in laws basement. Has no real job except to dupe money from the poor that are searching for the truth.

    This guy should be locked up for good so he can’t hurt any more innocent victims including his poor little children.

    He is truly the anti Christ.

    Anti Christopher (Lock him up and throw away the key) He does not get what life is all about)

    • You sound like one of the people who killed Joseph Smith. As if religions like the Mormons haven’t been extorting tons of money out everyone, including old women, since the dawn of time. Before my grandmother died, everyone in the family was certain she was leaving everything to the Catholic Church, as she threatened to many times if my mom refuses to leave the Mormons. Your emotional reactions to ideas are authentic, but you are not comparing ideas, people and situations accurately and fairly.

  11. First of all Jesus said, “By Their Fruits Ye Shall Know Them” The United States is the Most Corrupt Nation on the Earth. A Hypocritical Nation. It kills it’s own People to go into other Sovereign Countries to Destroy them! As for Christopher, Who are you to Judge Him. The Constitution of the United States says a man shall have Freedom of Speech and Press! You must first Have Love, one for another, Forgive one another. All things shall be brought to the light, no one can escape it.

  12. Joseph Laflin Says:

    I see all of the criticism written on the internet concerning Joseph Smith and it only strengthens my faith in him. I know he wasn’t a perfect man, nor are any of us, and I am sure that he did things that he would like to go back and rectify, and I don’t know why the Lord chose Joseph to be his modern day prophet, but what Joseph did as a prophet of the Lord is perfect in every way. His words, his writings, his translations, his prophecies; all speak of truth and heavenly direction brought to the earth. This is my testimony of the Prophet Joseph and as far as Mr. Nemelka, well, looking back on the history of prophets of old and modern times, it is not a real standout calling as far as longevity or popularity. I hope you believe what you have written, because I have serious doubts starting with Lehi being described a descendant of Ephraim.

    • Jake Snake Says:

      Joseph Smith is the only one of God’s prophets to be shot in the face with a gun. Put your faith into something less stupid, plenty of other things get persecuted.

  13. Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a Marvelous Work and a Wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. (Isaiah 29:14)

  14. Christopher Nemelka comes across to me as a psychopath aka sociopath. I know there are plenty of psychopaths that use the church as their mask of purity and innocence. These remorseless individuals hide within the LDS Church because it makes such a convincing mask for them. Who questions someone who goes to church every Sunday? They obviously live up to the moral principles taught there..Wrong! The young woman I met the LDS Church through was the biggest hypocrite I have ever met. I am not exaggerating, I am publishing a book about being the transitional target of that young woman. What you have to look at here is Nemelka has been divorsed 5 times. The girl I met had been engaged twice before ever meeting me. Guess what? She broke her vows with both guys to inflict emotional pain upon them as a way of convincing herself emotions are weak. Why? Because she has an incurable personality disorder of which she does not understand emotions because she does not feel them. What did she personally tell me about her exes? She told me they were ‘too emotional.’ A normal person does not say something like that, ask any professional psychologist. A psychopath is kind of like a person who is colorblind. The colorblind do not know colors because they cannot physically feel them.

    Another thing to take into account is Nemelka has 9 kids. Psychopaths, since they feel they are superior, naturally want to pass their genes on so they go to the extremes of multiple partners to reproduce and since they pick out sympathetic people as their partners they know those types of partners will raise their children for them with the psychopath not needed to put forth any real effort into parenting.

    If the Bible does not talk about reincarnation, why would you believe in it now? Seriously, people? Nemelka is clearly getting duping delight out of everything he is doing to deceive people. Deceiving people is what psychopathy is all about. They never change into caring loving individuals since they have way too much fun and take way too much pride in messing with emotional people as a means of existential vengeance. If you want to know how to spot a liar watch the TED Talk How to spot a liar. Pathological liars are not that good, they overcompensate in their speech and body behavior. My psychopath, would stare me straight into the eyes and lie right to my face while remaining motionless in her upper-parts. She would closely observe how I reacted so she knew what she needed to say to continue to dupe me.

    In terms of Joseph Smith, I do not think he was a pathological liar. For one thing, they cannot take criticism. A pathological liar is not a humble person but reading his personal accounts makes me think Joseph was quite humble.

    Joseph Smith once said, “These people are either the biggest dupes that ever lived or I am not as bad as they make me out to be.”

    Knowing my psychopath, I know she would never say something like what Joseph said. She would never suggest the clues to making out who she is behind her mask. This is because they don’t want anyone to figure out who they are behind their mask. As soon as I figured out who she was behind her mask, I became enemy number one. I was the only one that could make her mad. Her madness was manifested to try to condition me to stop exposing her. Instead of overcoming and being friends after everything, the grudge popped up in its place.

    I bet if you went to any of Nemelka’s wives and asked them to read books on psychopaths they would come to the conclusion that Nemelka is one. So I’ll end with would God call a psychopath, someone who does not understand emotions to be a prophet of His word? I certainly do not think so especially after my encounter with one. The psychological professionals have all claimed that none of them has ever seen a psychopath overcome their disorder and turn into a better person. That’s why psychopathy comes with the label that the disorder is incurable.

  15. Sue Donim Says:

    Chris is an atheist whose only defense for his fraudulent claims and multiple false identities is to save believers from their beliefs. Google something like: CHRIS NEMELKA EXPOSED

  16. Don’t believe everything you read on the internet just because there’s a picture with a quote next to it… – Abraham Lincoln

    but seriously check out Christopher Marc Nemelka in his own words interviewed by me an enemy of his work.

    All I can say is by their fruits ye shall know them

  17. Real Truth by Fire Says:

    I have seen the biography of Christopher Nemelka by Robert Pace on the comment above (youtube). Christopher is very truthful and shows people many of the mistakes he made and how he and others hurt each other. To think he would be lying when it just makes him look bad, is ridiculous. Robert Pace was once an avid anti-Christopher. Soon he saw the error of his ways.

    When I look through this website everything is well quoted. Honestly, I am not offended by any of the red flags the makers of this website seem to think are so terrible. You need to remember standard Christians think the same way about the LDS people. Now the LDS people act the same toward Christopher’s work. How can they stand to look at themselves in the mirror for the hypocrites that they are? I have never seen so many eager anti-Mormons than when people came against Christopher. That’s right, many LDS members have taken the anti-Mormon role spreading hate about a belief system they understand little about, they represent well their hate and likely fear of his work publicly.

    I have seen LDS members say they prayed and the Holy Ghost told them the Sealed Portion was not true. They didn’t even read it! Moroni in the Book of Mormon states that after reading the Book of Mormon we must ask the Father with real intent believing it is true if the Book of Mormon is indeed true. These people are not following Moroni’s words when they claim to be defending the Book of Mormon and the LDS faith.

    4 And when ye shall receive these
    things, I would exhort you that ye
    would ask God, the Eternal Father,
    in the name of Christ, if these things
    are not true; and if ye shall ask
    with a sincere heart, with real intent,
    having faith in Christ, he will
    manifest the truth of it unto you,
    by the power of the Holy Ghost.
    5 And by the power of the Holy
    Ghost ye may know the truth of
    all things.

    How does the Holy Ghost witness to you if you have doubt and don’t even want the Sealed Portion to be true? How does it witness against a book you didn’t even bother to read? The articles of faith teaches us to find goodness in all things. We aren’t doing that if we fail to study the Sealed Portion, fraud or otherwise.

    I would challenge anyone to show me how it’s false. I have received many revelations over years since reactivation in the church that proves to me what the Sealed Portion is true. Find out for yourselves! Is the message brutal? Yes, it is if you are LDS. But you end up having increased joy and freedom when you are finished. If you want to follow prophets all the days of your lives because you need their guidance and are not very good at using the Holy Ghost, the Sealed Portion will only hinder your understanding of the plan of the Father. If you are such a person, study the Book of Mormon first and then as your desire to learn by the Spirit increases, all things will be made known to you just as Moroni states!

  18. I don’t know. It seems like Real truth by Fire hasn’t seen this video in which Nemelka admits to having written and NOT translated the so called sealed plates . I just keep wondering why on earth someone would dedicate so much of their life to disprove a religious group that has been around for so long and lets be honest. The LDS as a group don’t go around trying to disprove others. They really just keep to themselves. These so-called “excommunicated for being curious” people should really just leave the church of their own free will. If you don’t fully agree with them go and start your own movement. Its a free world. Why try to change them? and who can blame the church for showing them the door?

    Nothing the LDS church teaches is harmful to anyones health. If drinking and smoking and not being married to your sexual partner is what makes you happy then no church should tell you otherwise. But keep in mind that any sane post adolescent person should be able to identify that the smoking and drinking bit is not at the top of the list of healthy things. The marriage thing is a whole different post.

    • Real Truth by Fire Says:

      Apparently Lindi V hasn’t read my MANY replies on this video. All she has to do is read under Carston Shields post and there’s a whole conversation over at least a week. That video is easily debunked. As a starter, the video is greatly shortened to take what he says out of context. If they had nothing to worry about, they should have posted the whole thing! Christopher doesn’t post the whole video himself because he simply doesn’t care. Those who truly have the Holy Spirit, those who are genuinely seeking for real truth, won’t let this stop them from finding it!

      I have nothing against the LDS church Lindi, but they did reject the Sealed Portion, which means their claimed authority is called to question. They pretend it doesn’t exist. If they had true authority they would receive revelation from God and ask people to pray about it. Instead they cover it up and reject a work that is based on the foundation of their WHOLE religion! And yet, still nothing about in in general conference. Still waiting for the 15 apostles to admit it’s true or say it isn’t…

      It is obvious they don’t care if people lose their faith and exit the church to the supposed danger of their salvation as is taught. We know from their inaction they aren’t apostles with true authority from Christ. They are good people who do the best they can. I personally love them and have enjoyed their talks over the years, but I have found a greater truth based off of their more sound teachings from Joseph Smith.

      I agree the church teaches some beautiful values and a good way to live. It just isn’t what it is claimed to be. Personally I am still a member and teach gospel doctrine class. I only share it with those who I feel are ready for it. I’ve already changed one person to believe it who still is a member as well, it has dramatically changed that person’s outlook on life and is much happier! I am slowly working on another in my own immediate family.

      The reason the Sealed Portion is rejected so often, is because the price for learning it is steep. You need to be completely driven to finding truth at all cost.

      Can you be Real Truth by Fire? The arms of the Father will always be open to all who seek it!

  19. There are two forces in conflict among mankind.
    1. You have the agency to make your own choices and will be held accountable for those choices. Laws are given to guide you but ultimately you are responsible for yourself and the consequences of breaking the laws.
    2. You do not need agency since you are not capable of making right decisions, therefore no laws are given and you are not held accountable for your choices. It will all be taken care of for you and there are no consequences.

    Its pretty clear that you can see these two positions play out in peoples lives and in the politics they embrace. One side believes people should be held responsible and accountable, the other says its always someone else’s fault and not mine.

    IF you read the BOM and the Seal Portion Text, ask yourself which position is being espoused in these books. If you truly understand the basic principles of both positions, it is easy to see which is promoted by each book.

    For every doctrine and principle given by God, there is one or more counterfeits, and some very good ones. Lies often hide behind truth and are well interwoven together. But the basic difference is clear, one side accepts responsibility, the other despises it.

    So rather than argue the surface issues and personalities of the persons involved, just look at the doctrinal teachings. Truth will always hold each of us accountable, False will always say that we are not accountable. Doesn’t matter the source, the person or the time, these two doctrines have always existed and have influenced man since Adam.

    • Real Truth by Fire Says:

      It is hard to tell what direction your argument is going. It’s somewhat cryptic. I’ve read the Book of Mormon and the majority of Christopher’s writings. They support one another. Both state we are ultimately responsible for the decisions we make in this life. If you didn’t receive the same message from both works, you haven’t fully read and understood them. So does that mean the Sealed Portion is true?

      It is true there are places in Christopher’s work that state we won’t be held responsible for our actions, but that is because the purpose of mortality is to get things wrong (and to experience opposition) so we can appreciate a perfect existence and society when we become resurrected. Regardless of what we do in this life, as long as we choose Christ in the end, we are given a level of glory. Doesn’t the LDS church teach murderers and adulterers and thieves and other sinful individuals also inherit a kingdom of glory?

      • Agency does not relieve you of responsibility for your actions, not even the ones you didn’t realize were wrong. You still have to accept responsibility for all your actions and take the steps to correct them on your own. That action is called repentance, restitution, guilt to correct or apologize. There is no instance in gospel where you are not responsible. Only Satan teaches the doctrine that you are not responsible and therefore have to take no action. Only children who have no ability to distinguish good from evil are exempt. However, in the spirit world they are still accountable for their choices make there. We live in a world where mistakes are made, but we still have to acknowledge when we are enlightened. Therefore i am suspicious of any doctrine that says you are not responsible and someone else will take care of it for you. Lucifer likes to slip that idea in gradually until we embrace it and blame others for our choices and actions. That was the plan he had that we rejected.

  20. Real Truth by Fire Says:


    Much of what you say is supported by Christopher’s work. You state only children cannot judge between what is right and wrong. Are we not all children of God, and therefore innocent to His true purpose and our obvious offenses toward His laws? It is true many of us as mortal adults realize our error (and sin), but an equal number of people do not. We are taught the words of men and we accept them as our own gospel. Most people do this. And so, like little children, know little more as adults, therefore proving ourselves truly to be like little children despite our outward appearance of being adults and “wise ones”.

    Many of these people have academic degrees that merely lead them further away from Christ and more into the world. If the great apostasy really did occur, how can you say adults knew any more what is right than little children? That is how He sees us and why we must humble ourselves as such in order to have the presence of the Holy Spirit to rest upon us.

    Christopher’s work specifically teaches we are responsible for our own actions and that we can’t blame our parents or teachers or abuses brought against us while we were young and innocent. We cannot blame society, politicians, religious leaders. While they often mislead us, we are ultimately responsible for our own actions. And yes it is true just as Christopher teaches, if we choose to be bad people during our mortal existence we will suffer immeasurably in the Spirit World just as you have stated.

    Accountability from the LDS understanding to the understanding in Christopher’s work is not the problem. The accountability of our actions is merely realized differently.

    The LDS faith teaches repentance and forgiveness. If we can repent and be made clean where is the consequence? Christopher’s teachings state that the consequences of our actions are held for all eternity. When we realize how terrible our actions were upon this earth, we know our Heavenly Mother’s were correct and that we cannot be God’s like our Heavenly Parents are. We cannot be trusted with that power. We live this mortal life to prove to ourselves what level of glory we will achieve and what will make us happiest based upon our own free will to be who we want to be.

    Repentance is a very real thing, but it is our change of heart that truly makes us feel forgiven. That is why when we return to our original transgressions it all comes upon us again. True repentance is following Christ with all our hearts. Sinners only do what is convenient for them and do not have righteous motives in their outwardly good works.

    Where your confusion begins is in the places of Christopher’s work that states we are not responsible for our actions. Our Heavenly Parents place us in specific areas upon earth that teaches us what our own eternal spirits needed to learn to reach our full potentials. They know with absolute certainty, though we surprise them at times, that we will use those circumstances as an excuse to commit acts against humanity. Because our parents know ahead of time what our reactions will be to these earthly circumstances, they are understanding when we do commit errors (or acts of sin). That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t feel sorry or that there are no consequences for what we have done.

    I do understand Satan’s subtle temptations. I agree with much of what you are saying. But we shouldn’t blame the devil for all that is wrong with the world when we can take responsibility for our own actions. Mortal human nature is our biggest enemy. Should we fight against it and learn to control it, or should we blame Satan instead? Common sense of the spiritual and eternal variety should be able to overrule these basic instincts that give us the excuse to place ourselves, in importance, above that of another.

    • The essence of what I am stating is that we cannot ever take the position that we are not at fault when we know enough to realize there is fault. That is where we cease to be children and are responsible. It becomes a choice at that point as to weather we repent or justify. Repentance will lead us back to innocence whereas justification leads us back to sin and ultimate damnation.

      Lucifer’s position is that it is too difficult and we cannot succeed. So he offered a plan where we would not be held accountable even after we realize what we are doing. He removes the burden of sin by removing the law and the consequence so we have no responsibility. Because all who rejected that plan are on the earth, he has to subtly reintroduce that concept in parts. He has multiple counterfeits that satisfy the desires of many different positions, but none that are pure to Fathers plan. He is great at masking his plan in Love to make it easier to accept.

      There are tell tell signs that are visible when he introduces a plan.
      1. Dismisses the need for authority
      2. Dismisses the need for an organized church
      3. Plays down revelation and the truth it presents
      4. Criticizes the leadership
      5. Minimizes personal responsibility.

      Although his work includes some great insight and direction on many truths, he has subtly introduced all 5 of the above referenced items in very clever ways to may them not seem so obvious. By wrapping his message in good principles, he carefully hides his original plan so that it is easier to embrace.

      Any time you believe you are not responsible for things you know, it changes your course and makes it easier to remain the same and not strive overcome or address your weaknesses. That will hold you in a lower kingdom where you cannot progress, which validates Lucifer’s original position, its too hard, they can success and I will prove it.

      I don’t blame Lucifer, he only presents the options, we make the choices so that we are ultimately responsible. If I used him as an excuse, then I have embraced his original position.

      • Real Truth by Fire Says:

        So we are in agreement that those who know better are accountable.

        2nd Nephi 15

        20 Wo unto them that call evil
        good, and good evil, that put darkness
        for light, and light for darkness,
        that put bitter for sweet, and
        sweet for bitter!

        This is a warning to the people and not for children. This warning is here as proof that adults often do not know right from wrong. They only practice what they know to be right because of what their fathers taught them. Remember the Lamanite king that converted to the Nephites. He thought killing Nephites was justified because his fathers taught him to hate them, and so this verse applied to him.

        If you recall the Lamanites were always the majority and always fought against the Christian believer. So it is in this world. Everyone wants to believe their own beliefs and church to be right, but everyone is wrong. Even the Nephites had beliefs and prejudices that caused them to fall away in iniquity despite having a greater truth. It is pride that causes one people to think themselves more enlightened than another, and this pride causes contention just as the early church experienced because of those beliefs.

        As D&C states, that which does not edify is of Satan. However, truth often is not edifying but is in fact damning to those concerned as they lose their innocence and realize their own sin.

        With the understanding that most men do not have the fullness of the everlasting gospel to guide them, most men will not be held accountable for their actions. They will realize their error one day and will repent to accept Christ of course, they all will except a very very few.

        Many men repent for that which is not a sin before God, but repent for what men taught them to be a sin before God. And so, even in repentance they are mislead.

        Repentance does not lead to innocence. Acts against humanity (or sin) destroy innocence. It is by losing our innocence and tasting the bitter of this world that makes us appreciate God’s plan. In the pre-mortal life (or during our foundationalization process) we were all innocent and therefore had to undergo opposition and how life should not be so that we could appreciate what Christ taught us in the Book of Mormon and the Holy Bible.

        Let me quote your list:

        “1. Dismisses the need for authority”
        This is defying authority outside of your own personal revelation.

        “2. Dismisses the need for an organized church”
        This is defying authority outside of your own personal revelation.

        “3. Plays down revelation and the truth it presents”
        This is defying authority outside of your own personal revelation.

        “4. Criticizes the leadership”
        This is defying authority outside of your own personal revelation.

        “5. Minimizes personal responsibility.”

        Actually, by removing the first 4 above, in greatly enhances personal responsibility. If we have no prophets to follow, which Christopher does not claim in any way, we only have ourselves to be responsible for our own actions.

        2nd Nephi 2:
        16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave
        unto man that he should act for
        himself. Wherefore, man could not
        act for himself save it should be
        that he was enticed by the one or
        the other.

        Personal revelation does not play down revelation, it is in fact the most important revelation anyone can receive.

        That is an impressive list until you realize they are all the same. Dismissing the need for an organized church does not mean we can’t do service to others or be a part of our community. But it does mean there is no need for spiritual authority because we each take responsibility for our own actions. In fact, we should not be trusting revelation from ANYONE if we have not confirmed it by the Spirit. That is something many LDS fail to do, they instead choose to blindly follow the prophets thereby skipping all the necessary steps toward spiritual self reliance they otherwise teach us to have.

        Authority gives men the excuse to use that power to abuse and subjugate those beneath them. Don’t get me wrong, I do love the general authorities. But they are at times responsible for unrighteous dominion. No leader who practices such dominion can hold the priesthood or priesthoods.

        2nd Nephi 26:
        29 He commandeth that there
        shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold,
        priestcrafts are that men preach
        and set themselves up for a light
        unto the world, that they may get
        gain and praise of the world; but
        they seek not the welfare of Zion.
        30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden
        this thing; wherefore, the Lord
        God hath given a commandment
        that all men should have charity,
        which charity is love. And except
        they should have charity they were
        nothing. Wherefore, if they should
        have charity they would not suffer
        the laborer in Zion to perish.

        I want to share a secret with you of the Spirit I think you would find helpful. The Spirit communicates to us in ways we understand. Often many laws of churches and belief systems are confirmed by that same Spirit even when they are not LDS of origin. If it benefits you, the Spirit will confirm it is good. This will happen outside priesthood authority and even outside any known church by someone genuinely committed to knowing all truth and righteousness. Much of what the church teaches is good for it’s followers, but it is far from the final word in truth and righteousness.

        Joseph Smith was taught to not join any church. I am sure you have met many people like this. They are merely following the Book of Mormon that states:

        2nd Nephi 4:
        34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee,
        and I will trust in thee forever. I
        will not put my trust in the arm
        of flesh; for I know that cursed is
        he that putteth his trust in the
        arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that
        putteth his trust in man or maketh
        flesh his arm.
        35 Yea, I know that God will give
        liberally to him that asketh. Yea,
        my God will give me, if I ask not
        amiss; therefore I will lift up my
        voice unto thee; yea, I will cry
        unto thee, my God, the rock of my
        righteousness. Behold, my voice
        shall forever ascend up unto thee,
        my rock and mine everlasting God.

        These verses do not mention men with priesthood authority, just men in general. No man, even one who claims such authority, can raise themselves above the status of being the arm of flesh. They are mortal and they make mistakes. But when we communicate with our higher selves (the LDS call this the Holy Ghost), we can know all things in faith and humility. If we are the ultimate authority for ourselves through the Holy Spirit, we can then claim ultimate responsibility!

        2nd Nephi 28:
        31 Cursed is he that putteth his
        trust in man, or maketh flesh his
        arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts
        of men, save their precepts
        shall be given by the power of the
        Holy Ghost.

        The Holy Ghost is not exclusive to priesthood authority. This verse states the precepts of men can be by the power of the Holy Ghost if they are correct! We can find truth everywhere if we know where to look.

        Yes, it is true Lucifer wants to take away our free agency and ensure everyone has the same power as our creators so he can ensure we all have the same reward. But forcing the everlasting gospel on anyone is Satan’s plan. We need to accept some people won’t measure up to their original ambitions if it is the true gospel that leads them. Realizing a lesser kingdom of glory? There is no shame in that because we are all equal to one another. There is no lesser glory, they are all equal but different. The church teaches gender makes people different but that they are still equal. Just because we don’t end up with the power of creation, doesn’t mean we aren’t equal to those that do. Power does not define importance as it does in this world when keeping in mind the perfect society held beyond the veil.

        Not everyone is happy in the LDS church or needs to be. If you believe the Millennium is set aside for temple work and that the administration of angels will fix all mistakes made by mortals before the coming of Christ, don’t worry so much for your spiritual brothers and sisters who will all accept God’s plan in the end. Missionary work isn’t conversion, it is service to others to help them live better lives and make better choices for themselves to ensure their happiness. The church does teach this. Success is not always something that leads to baptism. In fact, baptism does not always lead to success as I’m sure you’ve seen.

        Here is one problem with what you believe. When you are given an order by, for instance, the president of the United States concerning war time, the LDS church teaches you are not responsible for your actions because you are merely following orders or instructions given by the leaders of your country. Are the leaders of our country righteous men? Are you therefore trusting in the arm of flesh with patriotism as an excuse to defer responsibility?

        I want you to know I am not trying to make you angry. I am simply stating the truth as I know it. I believe you are right that deferring responsibility to any other party, including political leaders, is the wrong choice. While I respect our country and those who sacrifice their lives, sometimes it is for the wrong reason. We need to accept responsibility for each individual and stop letting others decide what is right and what is wrong!

        Christ teaches us to turn the other cheek. The Book of Mormon states that people of anti-Nephi-Lehi were the most righteous people that there ever were. They refused to lift arms against their former brethren, the Lamanites, even to the point of being slaughtered by the sword. Now that, my friend, is truly accepting personal responsibility.

  21. John Ernest Clausen lll Says:

    It’s been around for four years only; so the year after I read,Robert A Cloward’s ‘Prophesy’pouting it’s story on the White Horse Prophesy which would lead any unread soul straight into a delusion they could not their own Salvation by virtue of their Faithfulness. I expose this book as mischief beyond Cain as he attempted to hide his deed from an all knowing God. And I call out this mocking son of the morning in all his self glory. Poison who you will, but none will accept your iniquity as long as you continue to polute the human mind in this estate. Leave go our Zion Kingdom as we provide a space for your kind in the last days upon the world in which you deserve.

  22. Mack Cain Says:

    You spent a lot of time trying to dissect what I wrote. Rather than delve so deeply in a morass of opinions and positions, the gospel is clear. Lucifer has a plan to deceive, He will not come out obvious because he would be recognized. He does it slowly and subtitle.

    But ultimately he reveals himself by teaching that Jesus is not the Christ. Korihor is a prime example of that tactic. He told Korihor that he had to save the church and to lead the members away from the domination of the leaders of the church.

    He carefully lead them to embrace that there is no Christ.

    I have not read Menelka declare in his writings, Jesus is the Christ and is the author of Salvation. He does not declare that without the atonement, there is no salvation physical or spiritual.

    A bitter spring can not bring forth sweet water.

    He claims the BOM is a myth, yet he translated the Sealed Portion to substitute that myth. He claims Brigham Young lead the church astray, but Joseph Smith appeared to him in the Temple Brigham built. He has drawn people in with a very well written series of books that aren’t much more than expanded commentary on the BOM. Now he is leading them away from Christ. Its Korihor all over again.

    We can spend hours delving into how responsible a person is for following his country or his church leaders. We are responsible when we know something is wrong and then embrace it. When the truth is presented we refuse to accept. That’s where agency separates us as individuals. We will each be judged for the intents of our hearts based on the knowledge we have in the circumstances in which we exist. Only God can judge our hearts and only the individual being judged understands.

    Joseph Smith was directed to organize the church and given the priesthood. To minimize that are dismiss it in any way is a step toward apostasy.

    I agree that the leaders of the church make mistakes and errors.
    I was a leader and I know first hand how easy it is to make a mistake. But that doesn’t erase the need for a priesthood or to follow our leaders directions. We should pray for confirmation, but as lazy humans, we often take the easy road.

    Policy for running the church is ever changing. Doctrine never changes. When and who holds the priesthood varies on policies. The fact that there is a priesthood never changes. We may spend hours discussing the differences in policies and history, but the basic truth that never changes is,

    Jesus is the Christ, son of God, atoned for our sins, broke the chains of death, was the first born human to be resurrected from the dead, has an immortal body, and will be our final judge.

    Most of the rest is just commentary.

    Mack (pardon the typos)

    • Real Truth by Fire Says:

      @Mack Cain

      I would expect that in order to have a meaningful conversation with you, seeing what you had to say and finding flaw or truth is a good way to go about being reasonable and moving forward with the conversation. The length of my response is merely a byproduct of the complexity of your own writings. You say a great deal, you should expect a great deal. Do not think what I write took a great deal of time or was somehow a huge effort. I speak of things that come easily and quickly and that I feel comfortable with saying.

      You can claim what I say to be opinion but much of what you say is assumed and unverified.

      Apostasy means I actually care what the general authorities say and do or that they care what I say and do. I am more concerned with what God would say as opposed to the arm of flesh upon this earth. If I am to be responsible, it has to be based upon what I know is right instead of what someone else thinks or claims I should know to be right. If the authorities do care and find me and place me in a position of apostasy, I still won’t care. Some good families will no longer have a good home teacher, the church will no longer have a good instructor, and they will no longer benefit from my services I offer because I love them. It will be their fault they chose to reject me, it will be contention that brings us to Satan’s playground instead of anything meaningful. Unless it affects me directly, I really don’t care what they do as long as they do their best to bring members of the church fulfillment and happiness. I would hope that is the case. What they do and believe has nothing to do with my own salvation. You are of the OPINION that in order to be a member I need to believe what you believe, do what you do. But what if my personal revelation conflicts with what they say? Do I ignore the still small voice, deny the Holy Ghost, just so I can stay away from apostasy? It would be unthinkable to me.

      I respect that you find happiness in the church, but you need to respect I find that in A Marvelous Work and a Wonder. I will verify with you that the LDS church, for what it is, is unlike anything upon this earth in richness and the doctrine of Christ. But it is not all there is. Christ’s church, for me, comes from within. It can’t be found in any one organization on this earth any more than that of another. I would never reject the LDS people because I found fault in their doctrine any more than I would do so with a Catholic or even a Muslim.

      I do respect your need for an atonement, I would hope you can respect that I feel my own forgiveness does not come from the suffering of Christ, but instead from my willingness to listen to the Holy Ghost so that I can maintain a peace and happiness about me, even a fullness of joy.

      You are somewhat behind in regard to the MWAW that published the Sealed Portion. The Sealed Portion is not claimed to be anything other than a book of ideas and stories that help someone think for themselves and remove prejudice. It is not real truth. It is merely something that leads people to judge less and feel more peace about who they are. It brings them out of following after the arm of the flesh and to listen to the Spirit instead.

      To deny Christ is not to deny the man but to deny the gospel. The books of the MWAW show the fullness of the everlasting gospel more clearly than any work before or any work that will exist until the end of time. That is how I see it when I see the work of the LDS church and compare it to the MWAW. If you have fully studied the books, read the journals, and watched all the video’s and been to the Symposiums, it will still do you no good if you don’t study it as a little child and test it to see if it is a good seed. To study it out of rejection from the start isn’t giving it a proper test as the Book of Mormon says we must do with all things. It goes on to state we need to continually seek out understanding and knowledge from the Holy Ghost, or we cannot have the Holy Ghost and it will be withdrawn from us. The Book of Mormon theme clearly states it is the lesser things of God and that we must ask the Father in the name of Christ for these things or they will not be given and we will be cut off in these last days.

      I have looked for truth and confirmations of the Spirit more than any other person I have ever known without exception. And because of this, I have found a richness of truth in all cultures and belief systems as the Articles of Faith instruct me to do, and now more then ever I allow others to worship as they see fit as the same document states we should all do. Before I came to question things said in the LDS church, I thought all those who rejected our way of thinking to be wicked and in apostasy against Christ. I no longer judge others in such a way and am more forgiving and accepting of how people are now, as opposed to what I think they should be like if they were more like I was. You can claim me to be in apostasy, but I would never claim that of you. For all I know, the God you pray to each night confirms your activity in the church and the doctrines that you follow. I will accept that and be fine with it, even if it means I feel you are missing out on some awesome truths I’ve discovered in my own personal journey. What matters more is the peace and happiness you find in it, even if it isn’t what I feel about it.

      I personally reject the claim the gospel never changes in the LDS church, the gospel never changes but is independent of any organization. What the Holy Spirit tells an individual depends on what that person needs as an experience to have eternal joy and gain uniqueness and meaning in their lives. But it is your claim and where you find uniqueness and meaning. I just hope you can find a way to accept what you feel is true without stepping on what others find to be sacred and true.

      • You should read the story of Korihor.
        You teach very much what he taught.

        I put my name on my statements.
        So far i do not know your name.
        I dont thin your parents named you Real Truth by Fire.
        Your Name?

  23. TheNephite Says:

    Ok, if you read the sealed portion book, take a birds eye view. He basically uses ‘Bible/BoM’ language, every once in a while, reg english creeps in, so its inconsistent. Then he basically reveals the temple endowment, then goes through a bunch of world history, trying to fill space. Allot of it is disconnected. It looks as though he wrote a book of ‘logically’ what he though the gospel was (worlds, mothers etc.) then rewrote it with bible language. In addition, like most of all the visions, your spirit leaves your body, you body isn’t ‘changed’ for a while then changed back. They always say ‘when I came back to myself’ or ‘whether I was in the body or not, I know not’- Joseph Smith, and other biblical prophets. This guys doesn’t shed any more light on what we already knows, just puts what the church has taught in biblical language. If God didn’t want an organization, why did he create one in the original church with Peter James and John. This guy makes no sense. He obviously had a run in with someone in the church, got offended and figured this book was his way out. In addition, when you read, you do not feel the spirit like when you read the Book O Mormon. Its just a compilation of church doctrine, history, temple endowment, and some fantasy sci-fi writing.

  24. Real Truth by Fire Says:

    @Mack Cain

    And why were you leaving out your full name until your previous post? My parents didn’t call me Real Truth by Fire, how perceptive of you. My True Self named me this. To your understanding that would be the Father and the Son. The Father because I was conceived by the power of God, and the son because I dwell in the flesh. The Book of Mormon teaches, along with D&C, that we can be one with the Son as He is one with the Father.

    Why do you think in a comment above I said, can you be Real Truth by Fire? I was challenging everyone on these message boards to search for and find the truth in all things. That everyone has the potential to find the truth and to have a greater connection to our true selves (Holy Ghost) and be one with the Father and the Son. Just so you realize my above statement is not arrogance, it is instead how I see every individual on this earth. They all have the same potential I do, and we all have the same potential Christ did through the Father!

    I have read the story of Korihor. I taught the Book of Mormon last year. Do you think it was right that he was killed by the very people who he confided in for safety? Do you think it was God’s judgement? I don’t think it was, I believe it was the wickedness of the Zoromites. The God I know is a kind and loving God, and he forgives us for all our trespasses. Perhaps how that forgiveness comes about isn’t as important? Perhaps that we are forgiven is the most powerful and meaningful joy that we can have in this life.

    Again, I ask, what is more important, Christ as a man or the gospel he taught? The true Christ would not have us worship him or revere him any more than that of another man. Am I denying Christ by embracing the gospel he taught? Perhaps I am not the Korihor you believe I am and that you have forgotten to look in the mirror, in self reflection, of what you have personally become. One of the chief attributes of Korihor was that he taught against what others believed and made them happy and tried to destroy that happiness. You were the one who started on the offensive side of things, in our conversation with one another, and wanted to attack what I believe.

    I accept the LDS church even if I don’t agree with their doctrine. I love them as my brothers and sisters. It brings me no joy to have this confrontation with you. But I am afraid the only way we can be friends is that you accept that A Marvelous Work and a Wonder has brought great joy into my life. That you accept me for who I am now instead of for what you want me to be, to be more like you. I accept you and your beliefs and think they are beautiful. And by doing so, I am not the Korihor that you believe I am. I do not, in any way, wish you to leave the church and the happiness it brings you, just because I believe differently. Can you say the same? Can you tell me you believe I am not an enemy to the church and that I am not in apostasy, and that you accept me for who I am and what God has made of me? Or would you say I am the Korihor, the devil on this earth sent to sway the children of men to wickedness? You are not the label of Korihor I placed upon you if you can accept me as a child of God, in spite of not agreeing with my personal viewpoint.

    Are we going to be judged by standing firm to one belief system or another and not swaying regardless of the storms that beat against it? Perhaps. But won’t it be even more important that we treat others well and without contention regardless of our differences? That we love one another? The new commandment from Christ after the old law was done away. That we come together in peace and harmony and agree to disagree? Without this harmony and peace between one another, the only possible outcome is contention. Do not confuse standing for what you believe in and the contention it causes as a symbol of its truth, when that contention is coming from you and has nothing to do with the truth that you claim.

    • Take a look at my email, its my name. Its been there all along, I am not hiding behind a cover name.

      I assume from what you wrote that the Sealed Portion in nothing more than a fictitious novel based on the Book Of Mormon. Its not the Truth. Not sure how you think a God of truth would need to use fiction to teach his truth. God cannot lie, if he did, he would cease to be god. Satan is the father of all lies no matter how cleaver they are. I don’t really know everything yet as i move through the experience of life and learning the principles of the gospel, but I do know not to trust a person who deals in untruth. I can never be sure about what I am hearing from such a person. I may teach or say something that isn’t true, but its only because i didn’t know it was false, once I do, i abandon it. Could never teach falsehood on purpose. I could never embrace the idea that the Holy Ghost inspired the Seal Portion if it is untrue. Therefore it has no more value that Huckleberry Finn.

      Unfortunately there is no such thing as harmony and peace between evil and good, lies and truth. Good chooses not to associate with evil, evil despises the presence of good. The two can not coexist in harmony. Or otherwise God would not have thrown his beloved son Lucifer out of his presence.

      The definition of an anti-Christ is a person who teaches and promotes anything contrary to the position Christ championed in the Pre-existence. We may disagree as to exactly what he taught are meant, but good always rejects evil, and evil hates good. That’s why eventually we all have to be separated into the places based on the good or evil in each person. We can’t judge each other, but God can and will. We will be placed in kingdom that is best suited for each of us. Celestial kingdom is not celestial because of where it is, but because of who is in it. Same with the other kingdoms.

      I am comfortable with what I believe and am glad that you are as well. Gods ultimate goal is for all of us to be happy, and he knows best where to place each of us based on the choices we make.

      It was Gods prophet that struck Korihor mute.

      I guess i am a little surprised that you think we are having a confrontation. Sorry you thought that. I was just expressing to the best of my ability what I believe.

  25. Real Truth by Fire Says:

    I cannot see your email address. :) I could also tell you my temple name if you like, it not longer holds the meaning to me it used to hold. I’ve shared my current spiritual name with you, far more significant than my earthly name. There’s no possible gain you could get from my current real legal name other than to root me out and find my bishop. :) I gain nothing from knowing your real name either.

    If the Sealed Portion is a fictional tale spun by the Holy Spirit, then so is the Book of Mormon. They are the same. Each book is a greater understanding, the Sealed Portion more than the Unsealed Portion (Book of Mormon).

    You do understand frame of reference don’t you? If God spoke the truth just as it was in heaven and NOT on earth, we wouldn’t understand one dang thing he said. The Book of Mormon is written in the same format as the Bible to get people to pay attention. There is no more purpose in it. Because of this language barrier, no truth shared with us on earth is the same as the truths in heaven. This is largely because of the traditions of men. Fast forward 200 years and people are more ready to hear truth in a modern tongue. Ancient writings are not the only way to discover truth.

    The Celestial Kingdom is the kingdom where we receive the greatest gifts and power, but truthfully all kingdoms are equal to one another, no one kingdom is better than another. All of us will be equal for eternity. Joseph Smith wrote about the Celestial Kingdom as being the ultimate goal because that was what everyone wanted, they were obsessed with the idea of receiving the greatest when there was no greatest. Even Christ himself said the greatest in the kingdom of heaven was to be like a little child. That should be hint enough that no immortal resurrected divine being is of greater importance than that of another. It is somewhat like gender here as the church describes it. Women are just important in God’s plan as men. Likewise, a person in the Telestial kingdom is just as important and unique and full of joy and happiness as someone in the Terrestrial or Celestial kingdoms. This is how I see it, not expecting you to believe it or anything.

    I found Huckleberry Finn a good book. Whether or not a story is fictitious has nothing to do with the truths it teaches. I therefore conclude, if the Book of Mormon and Sealed Portion were both fiction, the truths they give through this is equally valid. Aesop’s Fables is one example. Jonah and the whale is another. ;)

    The LDS church teaches the gospel in several different levels depending on whether that person has a temple recommend. Anyone who has seen the endowment knows more about the gospel and God than one who hasn’t. Why is the LDS church withholding important aspects about the gospel from those who haven’t received their recommends? The Sealed Portion in Christopher’s work is like the Book of Mormon in the LDS church. The Game of Mortal Life: Understanding human Reality is the temple recommend for those who follow Christopher’s teachings. I’ve read it before it’s been published and I can tell you it is far beyond the knowledge of any religious work and it is deeply spiritual to those with a heart of humility and are as a child, willing to accept something totally new.

    Evil is good and good is evil. That is our temptation in the last days. Are you sure you have all your facts straight? How can we know we aren’t the ones who have fallen for this modern day prophesy of wickedness?

    If you have all the truth now, why does the Book of Mormon repeatedly tell you that you, that in fact, you do not? In that case, how is it you are reading a book that doesn’t withhold truth from you? Ask The Father in the name of The Son and you will receive these things. They are not of the arm of flesh. They are not of this world. They are sought within, through our own personal relationship with Christ (in whatever form you would argue him to exist, he does exist).

    All that good/evil stuff is true to a point, but I don’t really know your point. Light shines the brightest in darkness. And if you aren’t brave enough to shine your light in darkness, others in the world are really missing out.

    If God himself rejects darkness, his judgement, it doesn’t mean we need to confront others. We don’t judge and we love them instead.

    I already know what you believe, I’m LDS. I go to church every week. :)

    Concerning confrontation. Why would I think you are confronting me when you claim I am the great Korihor (whore) of the earth? :)

    • I guess there is weakness in the written language. Some misconceptions here about what I meant.
      Didn’t call you a whore, said what you are espousing is very much like what Korihor taught. Whether you are a korihor or not is really up to you to figure out. You repeated some of it again, that the church is holding us back and not telling us everything. That is what Korihor said. He accused the church of leading the people astray. I wholely disagree with your position as equally as i do with Korihors. You tell me, do you agree with what he taught, you are teaching much of it just different twists.

      Christ taught his disciples more than the taught the populace. He taught Peter James and John things he didn’t teach the 12. The prophets have always known more that they tell. Paul saw things he said were unlawful to speak. So why would not the modern prophets follow the same pattern.

      If you are willing to reveal you temple name, then you don’t consider your covenants made in the temple as important, You should probably consider leaving the church for your own comfort. I have no interest in contacting your bishop, that’s up to you. You have to decide if you are being honest. if you feel that way and still remain a member. I would call that hypocrisy.
      Lucifer definitely teaches the position that everyone is equal. Sorry, that is not the case. We may be equally loved by our Father, but he does not equally trust all of us with the same level of knowledge. Nor does he reward us equally for our choices. Thats another part of the Lucifer plan. I admit, that this life is hard and the choices tough. I can see how his plan was very appealing to a third of the host. I sure he will use that same approach on people as they enter the spirit world before the resurrection.
      Because he loves all of us, he has a place for each of us, but they are not equal with opportunity and knowledge.
      I find it absolutely remarkable that you think the BOM is a fiction inspired by the Holy Ghost. I can only assume you think the same thing about the Bible. IF I embraced that belief, then I would say all the teachings about the Holy Ghost are also fictitious, which basically eliminates every thing you now teach. That’s the problem with claiming scripture is false, it falsifies everything, including what you use to justify your position of being taught by the Holy Ghost.
      That’s like saying, I am lead by the Spirit of Mark Twain.

      New doesn’t mean true, you can throw Mien Kampf, Origin of the Species and the Communist Manifesto into that category. I can acknowledge that all three were remarkable and inspired works, all three have had a massive impact on the world, but who inspired them?

      I know there is one thing that Lucifer and all his followers dislike. Judgement. They seem to always want to eliminate judgement under the guise of Love each other. We will all be held accountable for what we know and what we do with what we know. We can’t judge each other effectively because we can’t see the heart. God can. Your thoughts and feelings are an open book to him, and as long as you can stand before the Christ and have a totally clear conscience, then there is no fear of Judgement.

      Korihor was trampled down by people who felt deceived.

  26. Real Truth by Fire Says:

    There is nothing I need to figure out.

    Much of what your saying about withholding truth and twisting the fullness of truth to excuse the prophets is exactly how Christopher operates. He knows more than he says and he tells us what we can handle. But that is changing. That makes him more honest than the prophets.

    By your definition I am just like Christ’s disciples who were taught more. I was able to read the book, I was able to access his journals. I was able to converse with him among my peers.

    I take my covenants seriously through Christ, not through the arm of flesh that administered my temple name. My covenants are not what the church claims them to be. By knowing the fullness of truth I understand and teach better than I ever did before. I accept the LDS church and dwell within its walls because I am willing to respect the viewpoint of others over my own if it makes them happy and they feel at peace from it. It has nothing to do with lying. If the prophets can do the same, they lie no more than I.

    What you call lying I call allowing those around me to exist in peace. How many people who learn anti-Mormon doctrine exist in peace with others around them? Or do they instead do their best to convince their whole congregation they have been fooled by Satan just as you are doing with me?

    You are sure you are right, therefore I must be wrong. That is an oppositional attitude. If you have that right, can’t I claim the same and be equally right? I won’t condemn you or say you are on Lucifer’s side of the battle. I won’t say your salvation is at risk for what you believe. Much of what you believe is good and it brings you happiness. Much of what you know comes through personal revelation, or at least I would hope. The same is true for me. It is right for me. It brings me peace.

    Christopher fully explains the temple endowment and is honest about its interpretation. Even within the temple walls I was no closer to understanding it than anyone else. Part of the confusion comes from deleted passages that changed over time with the church through the centuries. The same thing has happened to D&C and even at times the Book of Mormon. If Smith is a true prophet, the ones after should be ashamed. This illusion has existed for hundreds of years and yet Christopher’s work comes to a near conclusion only 13 years later fully revealing the truth.

    I didn’t judge the work until I had read it in full. Until I prayed about and pondered every passage just as I did the LDS standard scriptures.

    Understanding the Book of Mormon shows the Bible fools us, it is very clear. And how many general authorities have said we can trust the standard works and that they will not mislead us? By accepting the Bible as part of the fullness of truth, the LDS church is thwarting the restoration of the gospel. It cannot be a true restoration if old is accepted with the new. The Bible is the chief reason we remain in ignorance as a people. There are literally thousands of interpretations of the Bible, none of which are consistent or logical with the other. And if the Book of Mormon is true, why are there so many gospel truths in the church that cannot be confirmed by modern revelation? Who do many of these doctrine(s) deny the purity of the Book of Mormon? That book can prove the LDS church untrue despite that I believe the church is more enlightened and has more truth than their Christian brothers.

    How is following Christopher not the arm of flesh? Because nobody follows him. Nobody pays him. Even his own close helpers are financially supported by him, especially those who he could not refuse in the past for their offerings. He doesn’t expect us to understand everything he teaches and to accept it. He’s just as happy if we leave. He doesn’t tell us to leave our churches and says it’s all good. There is no church or organization beyond helping others to solve poverty. And that doesn’t work if the world refuses to embrace it. The church does some good with supporting their own, but they ignore the starving Africans and only give occasional support if the news reports a big storm or earthquake. They do good sure, buy why donate with charity on occasion and let everyone else starve, when poverty can be solved worldwide without the need for any charity organization to ensure the poor stay poor?

    Leaving the church, really? Where else is there to go? Christopher doesn’t need me. And everyone else on this planet are Christian or have eastern beliefs I only share belief with in part. To leave the church means there is no place to go. Why can’t I just stay with and love my current friends? What’s the need for separation just because one group believes differently than another? If I go to a UFO convention and I talk to believers in aliens, it’s the same thing to me. So few know the truth but it’s no reason to leave them or to reject them. This planet we call earth is filled with ignorance but that doesn’t diminish my love and friendship towards them. Korihor would tell me to leave. Korihor would tell me I am wicked and that you are wicked. He would say we must follow him and leave others behind. Such policy is foreign to me.

    If you want to talk about hypocrisy, what about saying that the Father loves each and every child of God but uses the church as an excuse to shun gays? Why would they deny a child raised by gay parents baptism when they believe from their own church such denial is thwarting their own salvation, that baptism is required to dwell with the Father again?

    All men were created equal. The constitution itself claims this and everyone follows their political leaders who are not equal to those who support them. They stand on a pedestal and seek our support like a false God asking for tithes and worship. Or perhaps our false idol is a favorite actor who cares for little more than fame and profit for an excuse to live a completely unrighteous existence with wine, women, and song. If the LDS church truly has a restored priesthood, these are indeed false priesthoods setup for the few who benefit from it, even if it means many go hungry and are never fed.

    I do not believe the current prophets are to blame, they are following what they feel is right. But I don’t exactly hold them blameless either. They are part of the problem as long as people choose to follow them and their words over their own covenants with the Father and the Son. That can only be received through personal revelation and not from any earthly organization. That makes every person on earth a worthy candidate for priesthood power as long as they choose to serve Christ, instead of their own selfishness by supporting a system that refuses to accept an end to poverty, and worldwide suffering, through unrighteous dominion and slavery to a broken economic system.

    The church suggests we stay active politically in our communities which does appear to be good, but it is also suggesting we support a system that is broken and causes endless people suffering, hunger, and abuse. The church works within the system and does nothing to change an obviously broken one. Instead it is easier to teach that homeless people on the streets are meeting God’s wrath and that if they were righteous they would be flourishing in temporal blessings. Knowing the church doesn’t even help the homeless victims begging on their own temple and church owned grounds shows us we might as well help with our 10% income to those people instead of trusting in an organization that does nothing for them right under their own noses.

    The church should be the temporal help to these victims of a broken economic system instead of being part of the problem. I know many church members don’t support what I have said about the homeless, but it does show a hypocrisy in Christianity as a whole. The Catholic church wears crowns upon their heads with scepters and spacious buildings but do nothing to feed the billions of followers world wide. I don’t see other churches doing much differently. There are programs here and there to feed the sick and needy, don’t get me wrong, but the problem is there were sick and needy to start with. Nobody wants to solve it, they just want to feel good making offerings when it only ensures those people will starve tomorrow. It is like feeding a dog crumbs after finishing a meal. Maybe you are right, not everyone is equal…

    • Real Truth by Fire Says:

      The Holy Ghost works in all places and at all times, scriptures are simply ONE medium by which we can feel it. I wouldn’t need one scripture to feel the Holy Ghost if all I did was listen. I have felt the Holy Ghost on many occasions and I was not deep in scripture study. All I had to do was think something that was right and true for me. I received confirmation and I felt a joy about me. And I wasn’t even praying. I was simply being a sincere and good human being.

      You say, “I know there is one thing that Lucifer and all his followers dislike. Judgement. They seem to always want to eliminate judgement under the guise of Love each other.”

      So I say I love those around me and you want to claim I don’t?

      You say to leave judgement to God and yet you are judging. You aren’t allowing me to love others equally because of the claimed gospel that you teach. Lucifer is the master of judgement. Lucifer judges us every day, makes us feel miserable, makes us feel unworthy to receive of the Father. That is true judgement. That is true misery, and it comes from the judgement of Lucifer.

      To love others is to show them we accept them for who they are so they will again begin to feel important and that there is hope for a better future. People can’t make changes in their lives if we don’t help them lovingly without judging them. When you speak of this great battle of good and evil, you are judging all those who don’t believe as you do. You are condemning them, not loving them.

      You are twisting what is good, putting it on its head, and saying it is evil in defense of a righteous God. If we are truly to leave judgement to God, why all this Luciferian garbage about God’s judgement when the scriptures make it very plain that you aren’t allowed to do this? That you should instead love them?

      • Judgement of the teaching you hear is your right. That doesn’t mean that I am judging you. We have to judge ideas and beliefs in order to make decisions. God told us not to judge the intents of a persons heart, that only he can do that. But we are to discern between good and evil. Otherwise we would follow men like Hitler, who genuinely believe what he was doing was right. After one failed attempt on his life he declared that it was evidence that Providence wanted him to do what he was doing. Wonder what spirit he was listening to. If you are unwilling to acknowledge that there are evil influences in the world, then you are left open to be deceived by it. There is evil, and it works constantly. Good is to love others and treat them with respect, but it also means standing against evil to protect those you love, no matter how much they cry out that I should love them and not resist their ideas.

        We cannot dismiss the presence of good in this world, but at your own peril, you should not dismiss the presence of evil either, or else another holocaust will take place. Don’t think for one moment that there are not people who would gladly exterminate Mormons, or Blacks, or Whites if they had the power to do so.

        Maybe you should go back to the Mormon Novel about the characters in the BOM that wanted to destroy each other because they were full of rage and anger. Since the Holy Ghost gave us that novel as a teacher, that story has relevance.

        I keep trying to follow your logic, but it keeps circling back to Love everyone, which is the gospel. But loving everyone never told us to accept evil or sin. Its not Lucifer that makes us feel guilty, its sin that makes us feel guilty. He teaches us to violate the law, Christ teaches us to follow it. Following the law gives us peace and safety, while violating it puts us in danger and despair. When we do sin, Christ gives us the atonement, (that’s love) Lucifer excuses it as not a sin (that’s bondage). Christ gospel is clear and constant, Lucifer message is all over the place and changes to fit the desires of the person. Lots of counterfeits. The only thing constant in his message is, you are not responsible for anything. Thats why he and those who embrace his teaching dislike judgement.

        All of this you tell me is to justify embracing a book that someone admittedly made up. I find that extremely puzzling.

  27. Real Truth by Fire Says:

    That is right, discern good from evil. However, good and evil are not universal. To a Muslim, doing what they feel is right from their religion is often wicked according to the rest of the western world. They find happiness in their own faith, but the rest of the world condemns them with America leading this mistrust as an excuse to fuel military aggression. Muslims are seen as radical religious nuts. And because America is a Christian nation, it is all in the name of God, and former presidents have even said as much. Our military allows Israel to destroy Muslims when Israel doesn’t believe in Christ and should be considered equal sinners in the eyes of a Christian. That alone shows hypocrisy. But everyone assumes Israel is in the right because of censorship to world news and the US government being able to maintain themselves a super power by allowing other countries like Israel to do their dirty work for them. The stronger Israel becomes, the more the US can do nothing and watch the fireworks from around the globe without being touched, since US citizens don’t care much how many troops on both sides perish in the war as long as the US is allowed to appear neutral.

    If God judges men by their hearts, many Muslims and Jews in Israel even, are righteous people. Their imperfect actions and beliefs matter less than their pure hearts. Otherwise none of us would have any hope would we? I know it is believed that even in spite of all our efforts, it is His grace that saves us, his forgiveness. And that we remain humble because we realize we sin every day. That makes us identical to the Jews and the Muslims fighting one another. It really doesn’t matter who is right. The Jews feel justified from their beliefs, the Muslims in theirs, and the US feels justified in keeping their own soil safe by funding a war with weapons in the US. Something only the US could give away so freely because of their continually advancing war machine that is the greatest beast upon all the earth. But their greatest weapon isn’t their military, is their belief that they are somehow justified because our God isn’t their God and that selfishness to protect our own families is worth more than protecting the world. Didn’t Christ say those who love a brother or sister or mother more than they love Him is not worthy of the kingdom of God? Didn’t Christ say that what we do to the least of these, we do it unto him? The United States in every aggression against other belief systems, is killing Christ again and again according to the Bible. And it is all in the name of a just and righteous God. A God that is actually condemning those actions.

    If we feel we must protect our families and our loved ones, and we value them over all the children of God upon the face of the earth, there will never be peace and there will always be bloodshed and misery for the human race. It is only by showing others they are equal to us regardless of family, religious association, or acts of patriotism towards ones’ own country, that we will recognize one another as His children and no one will have the desire to raise a hand against another ever again.

    If Hitler thought he was doing what was right, truly, that would mean in a sense he was a righteous man. It would be a purity of heart despite the misery and death he caused those around him. He felt justified for himself and his country. He was protecting what he felt to be right and true and what he personally valued in opposition to the rest of the world. It is no different than the US going around bombing, assassinating, and causing mayhem worldwide so we can sit comfortable in the US and maintain a better lifestyle and safety at the expense of everyone else in the world.

    The LDS church believes what they do is justified with evidence of persecution like Smith’s martyrdom. If the church can use wickedness as evidence of righteousness, so could Hitler.

    The world right now is exterminating anyone who can’t afford food or find a job that pays enough to have a home. The economy is far more destructive than any military of the world. But our own pride causes us to reject these truths and we instead assume our forefathers to be righteous and inspired in the laws that they passed. When our forefathers are actually the ones who created misery for the rest of the world after ending their slavery to England.

    You don’t want to accept sin and evil? How about giving them free food and housing and health care and education? What do you think would happen to these supposedly evil people when they realize they can survive without effort and are supported by those who had the right to kill them? Poverty is the cause for most of the wickedness in this world:

    4th Nephi:

    3 And they had all things common
    among them; therefore there
    were not rich and poor, bond and
    free, but they were all made free,
    and partakers of the heavenly gift.

    And in the chapter about Korihor:

    Alma 30
    11 For there was a law that men
    should be judged according to their
    crimes. Nevertheless, there was no
    law against a man’s belief; therefore,
    a man was punished only for the
    crimes which he had done; therefore
    all men were on a equal grounds.

    And Moses 7:
    13 And so great was the faith of Enoch that he led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command; and the rivers of water were turned out of their course; and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly, so powerful was the word of Enoch, and so great was the power of the language which God had given him.

    14 There also came up a land out of the depth of the sea, and so great was the fear of the enemies of the people of God, that they fled and stood afar off and went upon the land which came up out of the depth of the sea.

    15 And the giants of the land, also, stood afar off; and there went forth a curse upon all people that fought against God;

    16 And from that time forth there were wars and bloodshed among them; but the Lord came and dwelt with his people, and they dwelt in righteousness.

    17 The fear of the Lord was upon all nations, so great was the glory of the Lord, which was upon his people. And the Lord blessed the land, and they were blessed upon the mountains, and upon the high places, and did flourish.

    18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.

    19 And Enoch continued his preaching in righteousness unto the people of God. And it came to pass in his days, that he built a city that was called the City of Holiness, even Zion.

    What was the mighty weapon that destroyed the wickedness and protected their people? Not military power, but in fact the Word that Enoch spoke that all men feared. Because Enoch and his people were in the presence of God and all among them knew these things. The unrighteous ended up destroying themselves without Enoch’s people lifting a finger. And there was no poor among them, and when this was defined, it immediately says that they had established Zion!

    It is clear to me that we are not in God’s presence and there is no true Zion. That He weeps, that his own tears wet his feet, because of the wickedness among us.

    Perhaps instead of praying for a miracle for Christ to come, we should instead care for those around us as our brothers and sisters? That they hunger nor thirst no more? Perhaps what Christ taught about the spiritual beauty of the gospel and being hungering no more, is also a literal feeding and drinking concerning temporal prosperity so that we are all well and can pursue happiness, whatever that may be. The church speaks of temporal blessings often more than spiritual ones, because after all, aren’t we all glad we can eat and drink and have shelter and feel safe each day?

    And what allows us to have these things? We allow others to suffer so that we can prosper. If that isn’t God’s judgement I don’t know what is. But the terrible fact is it is wielded by the arm of flesh and nobody is willing to lift a finger to save those who suffer. If they did, and they cared more about equality over profit and power, I guarantee more would be done about this problem. The kind of problem that puts weapons in the hands of a child so he can feed his family in pride. That is a chief ingredient to the existence of terrorism. An oppressed people who can’t feed themselves have no other choice. In fact, many of our current military in the US join because they otherwise wouldn’t have been able to feed their own families. They hope they will be lucky and not be called to war. Nobody else will pay them what they are worth!

    • Real Truth by Fire Says:

      The Sealed Portion was not made up by Christopher. I can give you a full explanation I’ve already recently written on Youtube. It is about as long as the post above. It is very honest about the work and how it actually occurred. There are no more illusions like translations and plates, etc. It won’t fit with LDS belief and could destroy your personal value. But the explanation is identical to how Smith created the Book of Mormon.

      Again, in case you don’t know, the video posted about Christopher making it up was edited by his enemies made to mislead you. I can fully explain it. He wasn’t even talking about the book we all know of as the Sealed Portion. And at that point he wasn’t even a messenger. He hadn’t yet accepted the calling.

      I don’t wish to destroy the value people have for the church and I don’t expect anyone to accept the Sealed Portion who doesn’t want to. I don’t think it is necessary if a person has found his niche in life and is happy. I wouldn’t want to destroy that belief and happiness the church creates.

      I respect the viewpoint and belief systems of others. Don’t mistake my disclosure of truth as aggression except when I respond to what I perceive as an attack. I have no need to convert everyone or even one. But I will defend the truth on behalf of a suffering world who suffers because so many are ignorant of the truth.

      • You said in one of your posts,

        “The Sealed Portion is not claimed to be anything other than a book of ideas and stories that help someone think for themselves and remove prejudice. It is not real truth. It is merely something that leads people to judge less and feel more peace about who they are.”

        Its not real truth. And Christopher didn’t make it up.
        It has all the hallmarks of deception rather that truth. Doesn’t really matter how Christopher wrote it, Book is not True. It has very little value other than a novel. Uncle Tom wasn’t true either.

        Even if Mark Twain had some good principles in Huckleberry Finn, it’s not scripture, and never claimed to be.

        Even if J. Smith made up the BOM or was lead by a spirit to write it. He at least claimed it was divine scripture from god and stated that it was a True Book.

        You are trying to promote a book you admittedly stated is, “Not the Real Truth”, In my opinion, its just a novel based on BOM. If the BOM is not true, then the sealed portion is also not true. If the BOM is true, then the SP is not true because of what the BOM teaches, not to mention you also admit its not true. So your whole premise is false. Why are we wasting time with it.

        You didn’t answer my questions. I notice you do avoid answering questions. Do you not know the answers, or just don’t want to answer? Or you don’t like the answers? I am curious.

        I too respect the viewpoint and belief systems of others. Don’t mistake my disclosure of the truth that I believe as aggression, except when I respond to what I perceive as an attack. :-)
        I also have no need to convert everyone or even one. But I will defend the truth on behalf of a suffering world who suffers because so many are ignorant of the truth. The truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the power of the Atonement.

        Your truth is a book you stated is NOT THE REAL TRUTH. What truth are you defending???

        Question for both of us. Based on what we both believe,
        We neither should respond to an ATTACK. Correct?

        If you can justify a defense of your belief, then so can the other side that believes different from you. That is the whole basis for WAR.

        Japan felt they were being attacked by the US with the oil embargo.
        Germany felt they were attacked by an unfair peace agreement.
        Boy did that stir up a wicked defense. Maybe we should have backed down and let the poor mistreated Nazis and Imperialist have the world with absolute authority. IF so, then Mormons, Jews, Jehovah’s Witnesses and probably Seal Portioner’s would not exist now. And we could not enjoy this exchange.

        God Bless America


  28. Real Truth by Fire Says:


    You say, “New doesn’t mean true, you can throw Mien Kampf, Origin of the Species and the Communist Manifesto into that category. I can acknowledge that all three were remarkable and inspired works, all three have had a massive impact on the world, but who inspired them?”

    They were inspired by the God of this world.

    That was the last question you asked. Lets see if you ask questions in this post.

    “Question for both of us. Based on what we both believe,
    We neither should respond to an ATTACK. Correct?”

    There is such a thing as creating a response that isn’t for destructive purposes. To be civil and loving despite an act of aggression. And to respond without judgement and always offering friendship when possible. That is the goal, but it can’t be met if the other decides being uncivil and cutting me down is the best strategy. You have overall, despite my complaints to the contrary, been more civil than most others I’ve spoken to in the past. Not that I will claim you have a halo over your head. ;)

    If you want to talk about responding to war, that is a bit different. However, there was likely some wickedness on one side or another or nobody would have pointed a gun at the other or ever fired the first shot. Meaning, the fault of war is likely on the conscience of both sides due to pride and other variables. People, by their own natures, are overall good and want what’s best for others. John stated our spirits are made from the same matter as God’s and that we are connected to Him. The real problem here is each nation seeing their own people as more important than others. That is why people attack each other, they feel justified.

    Were there other questions? I make it a habit to talk about everything a person has spoken about unless I see it is irrelevant or that responding goes nowhere. Also, often questions are baited and I have to judge (more like discern) if the intent for the question was a righteous one. Your own message are intensely compact with many ideas that could create whole other conversations. Responding to each in detail would make my posts even longer.

    Real Truth

    There isn’t one piece of real truth in the Bible of the Book of Mormon. There isn’t one piece of real truth in the Sealed Portion because it is based upon those 2 works.

    You don’t understand the difference between real truth and normal truth of this world. That makes your statements about the Sealed Portion inaccurate and misguided.

    Let me ask you a question for the second time…

    What does it matter if the stories are true when they teach real lessons and were truly inspired? I agree the Book of Mormon was inspired, but real truth? Not one bit. However, reading that fantastic books can lead to real truth if one were to search for it. It is a main theme to the Book of Mormon!

    So to your ideology and religious belief, if you read it with real intent and in humility believing it could be true in faith, asking the Father in the name of the Son, it can be confirmed as being true. But only if you want it to be true and really want to plant the seed and test it just as it says in Alma and Moroni. In my verse above quoted from Moroni, he says when you RECEIVE it, that is when you ask. Fully reading, pondering and praying will mean you have actually received it as Moroni implied.

    I agree, Christopher’s books are very well written and based upon many principles from the Book of Mormon. The Joseph Smith Biography however, is based upon the Book of Mormon, the Sealed Portion, Sacred Not Secret, and Human Reality. Human Reality is a beginners guide to Real Truth if you really want to know what it is through the mind of one like yourself who holds firm to religious beliefs. It is also not real truth, at least not in full. But it’s a good start. It is written much like his upcoming book, The Game of Mortal Life: Understanding Human Reality. Neither work is religious.

    The Book of Mormon is based upon deception to my understanding, but I still accept it for the incredible work that it is. I still learn things from it when talking to people like yourself. :)

    Like the Bible, the Book of Mormon has many interpretations. Grant it there are less than the Bible, but many LDS sects either polygamous or otherwise all interpret the book differently, also including D&C and the Pearl of Great Price. I’ve read much of the RLDS D&C and feel much of it is inspired even if it isn’t as great as what Smith himself wrote. Many leaders in these various sects wrote their own scriptures through revelation. I deemed them to be sincere but not one of them hold real truth. The often projected belief that men have tried mimicking scripture and always failing is actually false. In fact many men have, but some truly are inspired and see no light of day in the church. Most of them are from other LDS sects all over the United States!

    I am basically saying, just like the Bible, the Book of Mormon can be interpreted differently from one person to another. That interpretation, that can vary wildly, is what can make it dangerous. Part of the purpose of the book is fulfilled when people see it differently. It was designed to fit with the free will of an individual and see different sides of the story to fit with their own beliefs. As an example, I see the story of Korihor to mean something different from most LDS.

    Do you think my defense of beliefs is going to lead to war? I guess that would be pretty flattering to me, but that is not my desire at all. Peace is far more rewarding than flattery, don’t you think? :)

    I do understand you aren’t TRYING to attack me and judge me mercilessly, but just like every other religiously minded person I talk to, after you state this you again say something judgemental.

    One guy kept calling me friend, he was LDS, then he’d rub my face in the dirt (or was that mud?). His idea of what a friend is was flawed. He didn’t accept me for who I am, and so he could never be my friend. When we first starting talking he really liked me and we had some great times. But when I started to defend myself and my beliefs, he became a ravening wolf devoid of the Spirit.

    • Still feels like talking in circles. I cannot grasp your reality. You call me judge, then you judge me. You claim for yourself the right to discern the truth from untrue books, and decline the right for me discern truth from books I believe are divine.

      You acknowledge the seal portion is not real truth and the BOM is based on deception. Yet you use them to interpret real truth. I fail to see the logic in your position. Call that an attack if you like, but i am honestly confused at how you do that.

      You retain for yourself the right to discern and call the BOM deceptive, but get defensive when the same position is taken by others in disagreement with the Sealed Portion. Confusing to me.

      I expect you to defend your position and accept your right to do so. I just can’t get my head around the logic behind drawing truth from something you acknowledge is not real truth.

      How can you judge me into the Religious Minded category as if that is a something wrong, yet you are a member of a religion and are talking about religion. Can’t understand the oxymoron of that position. You judge me as misguided, something your resent when a Religeous minded person says your are misguided for embracing a book you stated is not true. Can you not see how strange that sounds to a person who beileves in and eternal god that has given us scripture as one of the guides in our lives?

      You select my questions as baited when they are basic principles of LDS beliefs, as well as other Christians. Let me state them again.

      What is the purpose of the atonement?
      Is Christ what he claims to be?
      Does God require authority to act in his name?
      If there a god who is father of our spirits?
      Will there be a judgement day for each of us?
      Is there evil in the world.

      I don’t really care what your answer is, that’s your business. But I can’t really tell from you emails what you believe. I think you know what I believe. Sometimes I am not exactly sure what you believe, but I do notice that you dodge direct questions like the ones above. That raises the question as to why? And why would you think they are baited?

      Your Question:
      What does it matter if the stories are true when they teach real lessons and were truly inspired? It doesn’t matter. I learned from all the books i have read. But only the scriptures have taught me about the atonement and the divinity of the Gospel of Christ. It is that gospel that I use to draw truth out of fictitious works, not the other way round.

      Leave that out, and we are each left to our own devices as to what truth is and how to apply it. Without a constant standard, we will all make up our own standards.

      Any other questions. I will answer any you ask.

  29. Real Truth by Fire Says:

    Without a true messenger, all we have on this earth are truths we created for ourselves that is not real truth. From these non-real truths, we are left with ideas those alone to try to discern real truth, or the mysteries of heaven in full.

    Human beings were never intended to know real truth, and why it is so baffling when one first encounters them.

    The true messenger today, who I know is Christopher, is the only messenger that was allowed to fully disclose his true identity in all of human history. That is, show us real truth. When I say first messenger I am referring to all known prophets or deities in known Christian (and sometimes non-Christian) history. While both Christ and Smith tried to give their people real truth, it was rejected by their peers so they gave them something they were more able to accept based upon biblical scripture as they’d been taught in previous generations. Christopher cannot do this now that he has been allowed to fully disclose real truth. Because his mandate is different than any other prophet or messenger before him, his job is to reveal real truth regardless of the rejection or how people think of it. That is because we are in the Latter Days as the church calls it. We are near His return. Our test and probation is near an end and the real truth must be given.

    It is all right if you think me misguided, I wouldn’t expect anything less because of your LDS convictions and your way of looking at truth. When I say you are misguided, I mean you don’t understand what real truth is. To do that, you would need to study Christopher’s books more. I accept you as an authority on LDS doctrine, you know it quite well.

    To say Christopher is a prophet is not real truth, it is to the understanding of men. He is a true messenger, the separation is important because a true messenger has a different role and purpose than assumed in standard scripture of what a prophet does. Scripture, while very good for those who find meaning in it, will never and has never contained real truth. But if I were asked directly if I knew the Book of Mormon was true, I would answer yes if that individual expected me to answer that way as a confirmation of his testimony he deeply cares for or if I feel the Book of Mormon could do that person some good, assuming they wanted my advice on searching for truth.

    Religious conviction and religious following, nothing wrong with any of it. I speak in religious overtones to be better understood by you. It is for the purpose of making you feel more comfortable. It is a humane kindness I practice to respect your beliefs as best I can. But also because the topic has been the Sealed Portion, a book most people in the MWAW who have followed it over the years no longer read for guidance. It was more of a preparation guide. But to your understanding, because of the God you believe in, I would consider it an inspired book in your case. I personally found the Sealed Portion only a year and a half ago, about, and so I have had to learn the entire work much more quickly and it has taken it’s toll upon me, for awhile, before I became more comfortable with a good understanding. :)

    There is no need in the work that I personally convince you of this book if you do not desire convincing. That is opposed to the church who teaches that helping others convert to Christ or be baptized into the church is a direct goal we must all have for eternal life. So I don’t really believe that you wish to talk to me without purpose of eventual conversion, when the church teaches you must, at the very least, convert my heart to Christ, and baptism into the church as a secondary goal as the current general authorities instruct.

    I do respect your belief that holy scripture contains real truth and that it is the ultimate prize in heavenly knowledge. I am simply stating how the MWAW sees it. A Marvelous Work and a Wonder as stated by the JST’s in Isaiah 29.

    I go to church because the Holy Ghost (in non-religious terms, my true self or advanced self) suggests to me that it is a good practice and that I can benefit them with my presence. That I can love them and care for them as best I can. If it were up to me, I’d leave. But seldom does the Holy Ghost show us things as we want them, instead we are shown things as they really are. The Holy Ghost continues to confirm for me, at least at this point in life recognizing my purpose there is likely temporary due to the volatile position it creates from their acceptance of me, that befriending them is good for both me and them. And the Holy Ghost has been correct. There are others like me who understand the work and still go to church, but it is more an exception than a rule.

    There isn’t one person I know if that understands the work as well as I do who still goes to church. All the individuals who go to church, from what I have heard from various testimonies, were those who still accepted the Sealed Portion as ultimate truth. I have seen Christopher counsel them in a way that suggests they need to respect the realities of those around them and not proselyte if not directly asked to by their family and friends. That is a rule I follow in my personal life, and it is a principle that has brought me peace in what would otherwise cause a huge conflict. So to me, it is proof that the core beliefs of this work really are true. As long as they still respect my God, though I do not disclose who I really am for their acceptance, I am in the wonderful position to accept them. :)

    True or not true, the stories in the Book of Mormon help you understand the principles of your church don’t they? I still see no problem accepting the stories as being just stories if the principles are true. I’ve watched many shows and films with Christian standards that sometimes quite effectively teach the same principles.

    What is the purpose of the atonement?
    Repentance is taught for the purpose of getting us to humble ourselves and gives us a chance to get in touch with the Holy Spirit. By doing so we can receive the needed guidance that we otherwise wouldn’t have. Much of the violence in this world is because the politicians who control it, are not being guided by the Holy Ghost. When we repent we feel forgiven and are able to gain confidence and tune ourselves to that Spirit. It gives us a chance to have joys and success in this life as opposed to the suffering we cause ourselves when we fail to listen.

    Is Christ what he claims to be?
    The original messenger now known as Christ was who he claimed to be, but his overall purpose and teachings have been clouded from oral traditions kept hundreds of years before it was recorded in the Bible. The actual words of Christ, excluding all other teachings of the New Testament, still remain pretty clear. The true messenger who we know of as Christ, actually went by a different roman name and his life was different from that which was recorded in the Bible.

    Does God require authority to act in his name?
    Once the Holy Ghost is in the lives of those who repent and listen to its promptings, this is sufficient authority to guide personal actions. It NEVER gives an individual the right to tell someone else what is right and true unless requested by that individual. However, a weakness in humanity is that many would rather follow someone like Moses instead of using the Spirit itself as a guide. As a natural consequence, prophets and ministers are worldwide to give people what they want. It is the easy way out.

    Is there a god who is father of our spirits?
    There is a plurality of God’s, each one guides an individual human spirit. God, to my understanding, is not literally our father. God is self, who we would be if we weren’t here in mortality that puts a veil over our eternal selves. The LDS church teaches we can be like the Father (or God) and is therefore compatible with the nature of the plurality of Gods. And like the LDS faith, we need only listen to one God, but instead it is the God within ourselves. That means we can ignore the God within others without repercussion because it can disrupt our personal communication with ourselves, what we really need to listen to that resonates within our hearts! This is important since each God wants a different experience from mortality than that of another. There are wildly different and varying purposes because each God (or human being individual) is different from that of another. That uniqueness of purpose and desire of experience for that uniqueness is much of the purpose for existence in eternity and what creates happiness and joy (after many sorrows in mortality). This uniqueness of each human spirit means that when others teach us, we lose our ability and power of self, the ability to follow our one and only true God, ourselves.

    Will there be a judgement day for each of us?
    Proper judgement can only be an internal judgement of our own actions, judgement is how we see ourselves. Mortality is forgiven when it was seen we would fail many times and stumble. It is that challenge that creates an eternal stability and appreciation for our eternal existence.

    Is there evil in the world?
    Evil is perceived differently by each individual. True evil, as stated in religious context, is that which does not allow each person on earth to be who they really want to be as individual. They are hindered by putting all their efforts into surviving to have food and shelter. Such an individual can never thrive without sufficient time and energy to discover who they are and what makes them happy. Religion, politics, and ideologies that instruct others away from self causes the chief misery in this world. This is all intended and what the veil is for. It creates unique challenges and sorrows.

    Earlier I said our probation was near an end. The truth is, because as a human race we have failed to accept real truth, our constant discord and unrighteous dominion over one another inhibits our ability to be truly tested. When the beast is tamed (the economy) and worldwide poverty is ended, then will our test of humanity finally take place. It hasn’t actually started yet. In religious terms, the second coming of Christ is when this time will begin!

  30. I think this is the most amazing book I have ever read. Why would it tear down the Mormon church? Maybe because of the reason the book said!

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